The fact that Mary died does not show that she had original sin or that she inherited original sin or that she committed a personal sin. So youre going to agree it does not deny Mary was assumed into heaven? It comes from agoyforJesus who Im now beginning to assume is your co-laborer. Well talk about adelphos more in the rebuttal period. So that doesnt take away from what an errancy is about, which is Scriptures specific affirmations related to what it affirms. . Christie then nailed a 32-yard field goal in overtime, sending the Bills to 5-4 on the season. It uses [Greek 00:37:34], not [Greek 00:37:36]. Okay. Trent had mentioned about, Well, it could mean sister-in-law. Well, the apostle John actually quoted from the Old Testament, from the Septuagint, frequently. If Luke was communicating Jesus was Marys only child, he wouldve used the Greek word [foreign language 00:04:55] translated only begotten, rather than [foreign language 00:04:57] like he did elsewhere in his gospel, such as in Luke 7:12, 8:42 and 9:38.And in John 3:16, where Jesus is the only begotten son of God, meaning the only one. In 2014, Christie was diagnosed with colorectal cancer. As a matter of fact, if you want to, immediately after this debate, I made two videos. So wed only asked does the bible teach that Mary had sexual relations. What we can find in the writings of the Church Fathers, however, are hundreds of citations of the deuterocanonical books as inspired Scripture. Aaron Frederick, one of my YouTube subscribers, rightly observed, In a courtroom, evidence that is thrown out or dismissed by a court cannot be used to find a verdict. Which church father would you want to preach at your church? Sounds like youre posing the question to you, Steve. Jesus is never referred to as a preemptive savior, but as a redeeming, delivering savior, which includes redeeming and delivering Mary from her sins. Thats all I got. He was content to let go and die a natural death. He was preceded in death by both his parents. And I already cited Greek scholars like Bill Mounce and New Testament scholars, like Richard Bauckham, who agree with me that adelphi has a broader semantic range than what Steve has brought up here. David K. Clark - apologist with notable books; teaches at Bethel Seminary. We now are going to have four minute rebuttals. Your view is that the word adelphos, what it means in the brethren is that its talking about Jesus and siblings, they have the same mother but they have different fathers. In fact, Protestants believe in many doctrines that are not found in scripture like their 66 book cannon of scripture where that public revelation ended in the first century. All right, Steve, whenever you begin, I Actually, just give me one second. In fact, as Baptist scholar Lee Mcdonald points out, the book of Malachi only implores its listeners to remember the law of Moses, which would be strange if there were a fixed set of writings established by Ezra called the prophets at this time. Christie, 47, played for the Bills from 1992 to 2000. And then Steve, because Steve, I can tell that youve really wrestled with what Catholicism teaches. First, ancient Jews kept their books in a series of scrolls and not in a single book, so its anachronistic to say this refers to the table contents in a book. Heres a question that I have that Id be interested in both of you answering. I will click the four-minute mark. Sure. After completing several real estate transactions, Stephen discovered that the agents' work ethics . Regarding proof from scripture, for this dogma founder and senior fellow of Catholic Answers, Karl Keating wrote There is none, in his book, Catholicism and Fundamentalism understanding that these three Catholic Marian Dogmas contradict scripture has twofold importance. Trent, whenever you begin, Ill click the timer. Protestants disagree. They can live out the gospel teaching in their unique holy family. The Protestant scholar, Ben Witherington says This figure is both the literal mother of the male child, Jesus, and also the female image of the people of God.. Themissionof Apologetics 315 is to provide educational resources for the defense of the Christian faith, with the goal of strengthening the faith of believers and engaging the questions and challenges of other worldviews. Whether youre up to speed or not on the contents of the Deuterocanon, this is an insightf. He made all 27 extra-point attempts and 23 of 27 field goal tries in his rookie season. So theyre different contexts to examine, but thats not what were debating, whether scripture teaches it. Geoffrey Stephen Christie (born November 13, 1967) [1] is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League (NFL), who, as a member of the Buffalo Bills, became known for his ability to kick clutch field goals, even in poor weather. Okay. You can finish your thought, if you want real quick, Steve. Just as eating from the tree of life wouldve resulted in Adam physically living forever likewise, Adam, eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, result put into him physically dying. You got five minutes, right? Dr. Steven A. Christie MD Radiology General Radiology Kendall, FL Male 21+ Yrs Experience English 7500 SW 87th Ave, Kendall, FL Overview Location & Contact Education & Experience Overview. In the early church, there was a heretical sect called the [Cororidians 01:25:03] and [Epiphanias 01:25:05] condemns them. Sean McDowell, Ph.D. is a professor of Christian Apologetics at Biola University, a best-selling author of over 18 books, an internationally recognized speaker, and a part-time high school teacher. I would probably enjoy Clement of Rome, even though 1 Clement wasnt written by an individual, but rather there was a poly group of bishops in 1 Clement. So you cant use Matthew 1:25 to prove Mary and Joseph had sexual relations. After an in-depth study of the writings of the Church Fathers, both Steve and his wife Janet converted to the Catholic Church. Primary meaning of the word adelphos can either refer to having the same biological mother or father. . Now the doctrine of original sin is true, but the Bible does not explicitly say that it applies to every single individual without exception. It doesnt mention sin there. General Discussion (Forum) Main. Well done. Sure. The connection of apologetics with evangelism is best summarized by Oxford theologian Alister E. McGrath: " So does the Bible say Mary gave birth to anyone besides Jesus? In Luke 1:28, the angel uses it as a descriptor of Mary within a personal address, similar to how John the Baptist used the lamb of God to speak about Jesus, and that talks about the significance there. Greg is one of the leading apologists of our day and has had a huge impact on my personal and professional life. Okay. They shall mourn for him as one mourns for an only child and weep bitterly over him as one weeps over a firstborn. So the terms can both be used in interchangeably in that respect. Like for example, how does one reconcile the following statements, I am the way, the truth, and the life, from our blessed Lord in John 14:6 and Hail holy queen, mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope, emphasis on both claiming to be our life? WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the Protestan Not Really "Of" Us: Why Do Children of Christian Parents Aban http://stevechristieauthor.blogspot.co.uk/. And these brothers still struggle on the same land 3,800 years later. Drive in with The Morning Ritual weekday mornings on KNST AM790Supervisor Steve Christie explains why he endorses Abe Hamadeh, Kari Lake and others and also talks about Pima County spending . G.K. Chesterton - famous author, philosopher, theologian, apologist. FEIN: 47-5459301. And if thats the case, I think hed have to say there really wasnt a church before that if he cant find someone prior to that say, yeah, that person believed essentially what I believe. Same with Matthew 28. Luther and Zwingli though, probably they did believe that Mary was ever Virgin. Other doctors like Ambrose, Augustine, Irenaeus and others in the early church, like Tertullian, Origen, Hillary of Portier, and seven popes believed Mary was either conceived in sin or committed acts of personal sin, including Thomas Aquinas, as late as the 13th century. And I think we both agree on the assumption, Steve said it the Bible does not say Mary was not assumed into heaven, and in order to try to show her assumption would contradict it, we had to use a very speculative argument about that she did not need to be rescued from death, even though that doesnt apply to every case where God would take someone into heaven. The last one to be accepted was the bodily assumption of Mary. steve.christie@phmloans.com. Not just on the Marian dogmas, but also regarding salvation. The earliest codex we have is the tenth-century-A.D. Aleppo codex, and it places the book of Chronicles at the beginning of the Writings (or ketuvim) and not as the last book of the Hebrew bible. And that Greek grammarians and New Testament scholars simply disagree with Steve on this point, hes just wrong about the semantic range of that word. Hofstra University, +1 more. Steve Ray was the third of five children in a family that became Baptist in the 1950s. Agreed. Lets see how much we can get through. Okay. However, he should have cited what Jimmy said immediately before that quote: It wasnt entirely clear to every group of Jews exactly what books belonged in the Old Testament., Akin goes on to write that Jesus and the apostles went a bit further than the Pharisees on the issue of the canon. General Manager New South Wales MRC Australia Sep 2017 - Dec 2018 1 year 4 months. Follow him on Twitter: @sean_mcdowell and his blog: seanmcdowell.org. Id have to respond individually. Number two is when Steve said, well, I dont think the church died off. Ravi Zacharias, the prominent Christian apologetics author and speaker, died Tuesday at the age of 74 following a battle with a rare form of cancer. Trent Horn vs Steve Christie Apocrypha Debate Recap & Discussion, Our Friend Steve Christie Gets Mitch Pacwa to Admit Abel to Zechariah Is About the Canon, Conversation On The Old Testament Canon With Steve ChristiePart 1, Conversation On The Old Testament Canon Part 2 with Steve Christie, Conversation On The Old Testament Canon with Steve ChristiePart 3, Gary Michutas Apocrypha Apocalypse Challenge ANSWERED! And I would say the same applies to Mary, were just having different views about what counts as divine revelation. Okay. Okay. Thats just being read into the text. Kelly said, for the great majority of the early Church Fathers, the deuterocanonical writings ranked as Scripture in the fullest sense (Early Christian Doctrines, 55). So if the Bible taught that every human Im sorry that every woman gave birth to children or that every person without exception commits personal sins or that no one has ever been assumed into heaven, then the dogmas would be falsified. I would ask him this question, you can answer it now or some other venue, who was the first Christian, like author, father, theologian, who held to the same theology that Steve does? It is fitting, therefore its true. Yeah, sure. So this next question is for you, Steve. Okay. Since Christians are not bound to accept their ideas about what Scripture meant regarding the messiah or the need to follow the Mosaic law, we arent bound to follow what they considered to be the boundaries of the canon, which was disputed even among the Pharisees. Trent had mentioned about the age of accountability. Trent, whenever you begin, Ill click the timer. He offered them in the debate. It would behoove us, then, to follow in their example and praise the gift of Gods word that comes to us in these writings and critically examine arguments such as those presented by Steve Christie that would tempt us to reject a portion of Gods sacred revelation. Thank you, Steve. So lets tie all of this up a little bit. My screen name is BornAgainRN, so you can look at me that way. Regarding her bodily assumption that Pope declared infallibly, if anyone should dare willfully to deny that which we have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic faith. In order to justify that claim, Christie would have to present a standard that tells us what writings prior to Christ are inspired and why we should accept that particular standard. H. Landlord. Morgan Stanley Wealth Management 631-755-8843. That rather, theres nothing in there to preclude people being assumed body and soul into heaven, including Mary. Well, the relevance is the fact that the word adelphos for brother, the primary meaning means a biological sibling, so unless theres a reason in the context of [inaudible 01:13:28]. When Trent tries to use this argument, hes using a logical fallacy referred to as the argument by exception. Welcome to The Counsel of Trent Podcast, a production of Catholic Answers. Because they have the same father but different mothers. He went on to score 1108 points in 156 consecutive regular season and post-season games and still stands as the top scorer in Bills' history. Geoffrey Stephen "Steve" Christie (born November 13, 1967) is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League, who, as a member Steve Christie - Top podcast episodes Good, because you know what? I do believe thats good evidence that Mary was Josephs second wife, at least thats my personal view, but that doesnt prove that Mary didnt give birth to others. You can get both of those on Amazon. Yeah. This contradicts the last dogma of the Bodily Assumption of Mary to Heaven infallibly defined ex cathedra by Pope Pius the 12th in 1950, which states after the completion of her earthly life was assumed body and soul into the glory of heaven, which strongly implies she died first. These would be children from his previous marriage, making them adoptive brothers and sisters, and as such, they would be fully Jesuss brother and sister, the full use of the word adelphos. in Aberdeen Scotland., The United Kingdom This means that there was no single, closed Hebrew canon during the time of Christ, and some Jews considered the deuterocanonical books to be Scripture. And the other concern, again, that I have is from Lumen Gentium, which is a Dogmatic Constitution of the Church, that it is binding to Catholics that even if a Roman pontiff does not speak ex cathedra, it is binding. Of the 336 field goals Steve Christie kicked during his 15-year National Football League career, none was more important than the one he booted in overtime on Jan. 3, 1993, at the stadium then known as Rich. I believe hes referring to part of a declaration in [inaudible 01:35:47], the declaration about the immaculate conception made by the Pope in 1854, saying that the fathers had always believed this about Mary being immaculately conceived. Lutheran Calvin, I would expect that. One of these would be Psalm 69, where it says of the Messiah, I have become a stranger to my brethren, an alien to my mothers sons. The messianic Psalms are applied to Jesus, but not in literal ways. Mounce writes, Nicodemus politely says Jesus is a teacher; but when Nicodemus does not understand the necessity of a spiritual rebirth, Jesus questions his status as the teacher, an authoritative rabbi (A Teacher or The Teacher?). And by the way, hi, Jeff. Jackson Memorial Hospital. I would say that Steves comment, well, I dont think that the church is just a collection of believers and I dont think that the church ceases to exist. We should only offer that to the father and the holy sacrifice of the mass. I would stress that we look at what the church teaches in its magisterial teachings about Mary and her important role in salvation. The Bible doesnt say that apostles are baptized, but it certainly seems quite fitting that they would be given everything else. Wait until after the debate, but if you want to go there now, its about that. This is not a commitment to lend. Trace and Steve both share their thoughts on the current state of Bitcoin and Wyoming's friendly Blockchain laws. All right. He might bring it up in his rebuttal. No one ever says the gift of prophecy or divine revelation had returned after being absent for several centuries. Im not saying that Jesus is the son of Mary means that shes the only person he bore. Hebrews 9:27 says, Its appointed for men to die once, but some people die twice. Steve Hays (1959-2020) We just learned that Steve Hays has passed away in a hospice. Just keep it shorter than his response. I do remember in that debate with James White five years ago, saying, Our theology should come from the Bible, not the Bible from our theology. And I was not arguing for Sola Scriptura. This is a separate event than from what Luke is talking about earlier in Luke chapter two, verse seven. Please try again later. What the church teaches is that infallibility does not cover preambles or evidences that are used to formulate a doctrine. Might give you a slight nudge in the direction, but by no means a full proof. Posts about Steve Jobs written by Christian Apologist. He mentioned about the Septuagint. Finally, this debate is not about Marian doctrines or theological opinions about Mary. He says, Steve. Two individuals share the same biological mother and father? Ill point to Mary in sacred tradition. Well, of course not. Trent, in your recent podcast rebutting Ray Comfort, you said Jesus is the only person referred to as the son of Mary. What about the other Marian Dogmas? The other reason was that as a Canadian citizen, playing one game in the CFL, would be great way to finish his career. Another piece of evidence against Christies claim that divine revelation ceased during the time of the deuterocanonical books is that the people of Jesus time believed there were contemporary prophets who spoke on behalf of God, such as John the Baptist and Jesus. Christie requested his release from Jacksonville after a week in camp hoping to retire, but signed with the New York Giants a day later, playing what would be his final NFL season. Well, the answer to the question needs to be in relation to applying it elsewhere in scripture because theres a lot of people that are mentioned in scripture that doesnt say that they had any children. 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